Curse

garethporlest18 · Jun 28, 2009, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Snip.

The hell you include my quote in that for? I was saying the people who get reported should have thicker skin, because they QQ for being reported even though they know better than to break a rule.

Regardless of the fact, why does Anet follow their rules when they want, and then other times, not follow them. I don't care if it was one word, by their rules it fits at least 3 of the intents not allowed. So what the hell? Ban for one, ban for all, not pick and choose. I know they can do what they want but still, it's not a good thing.

Sure I agree that the guy shouldn't be banned, it's not that big of a deal really, but then any other word, should also not be banned. Because hell, fag can hurt just as much as a racial slur. Idiot can hurt just as much. If Anet is going to lay down rules, then they should follow what they say they are going to do as punishment.

It'd be better if Anet stopped being so " in general" with their rules on this, and brought about something more aimed.

maxxfury · Jun 28, 2009, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Im wondering if he called Upier for example (and yes i know its filter bypass but for purposes of makin a point)

"you f***** c*** n***** go die!"

would support have taken a different view? and issued a ban? is it maybe to do with the degree of the offense?

Chthon · Jun 28, 2009, 03:18 AM // 03:18

I find myself in the surprising position of feeling I need to defend Upier here. This isn't about him. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with his posts should be able to tell that he's not that thin-skinned. It's about support's unannounced policy regarding 1-shot slurs. The fact that upier got called a fag is merely context.

Regarding the unannounced policy:

1. I was surprised by it. I too believed that calling someone a fag(/RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO/homo/ass-pirate/cocksucker/jew/douchebag/goatRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOer/whatever) was surely a one-way ticket to banville. Apparently it's not.

2. I think that this policy usually gets the right substantive result most of the time. A ban is a pretty heavy penalty for a single word, especially if there was provocation.

3. I agree with Upier's unspoken suggestion that this rule has no principled justification.

4. I'm not sure what I think of support relying on unprincipled rules that just happen to usually get the right result. On the one hand, the rule is "wrong" since it's unprincipled. On the other, it's not like support is staffed by a large number of highly-paid moral philosophers who could quickly and efficiently handle these cases in a principled manner. One thing I'm sure I don't like is support pretending that their unprincipled rule is a principled one. (Which makes me worry that they don't understand it...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Got bored of the QQing Homer and then saw Tingy.

It's just so ... gleeful, jovial, glad, joyous, happy, cheerful, sprightly, blithe, airy, light-hearted; vivacious, frolicsome, sportive, hilarious.

*blows kiss*

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I get called a (carebear)fag.

Gee, I wonder why....

Guldur · Jun 28, 2009, 03:44 AM // 03:44

What you guys defending upier fail to understand is that the context has to be looked at.
One thing is a guy offeding someone randomly at a town/outpost in pve, calling them a fag or whatever, this would surely lead to a few days ban.

The other is playing pvp, a competitive place where your screw up might result in a team loss. Expect people to be angry. Expect adrenaline to be high. Anet cant ban every person who says a single curse in pvp, this game would be empty.

Hell i know i have called people names before when they made my team lose by opening green gates for enemys in fort aspenwood. And considering upier did avoid telling what he did to anger the other guy, wouldnt surprise me if it was something similar.

bhavv · Jun 28, 2009, 04:46 AM // 04:46

What you guys attacking upier fail to realise is that he isnt QQing about being called a bad word.

The point is that according to support, you can whisper the word 'fag' to 100 people and no action will be taken against that person.

So, what if there is someone running around sending abusive whispers to everyone they come across? This happens a lot in RA. Play a bar or play in a way that someone doesnt like, and you will often be whispered offensive comments.

Now, if the person that had whispered Upier had instead used a racist word, he would have been banned right? I leave my filter switched off so that it doesnt filter these words yes. At the same time, I dont go around calling people fags or any other word via whispers.

Also, I do not bother to report single offenses as I hardly care for them, i just wish that GW would save my 'Do Not Disturb' setting everytime I log in so that people cant whisper me alltogether.

Even if your filter is on, you can still be whispered offensive comments, and I always forget to change my status untill such an attack happens.

So, update GW to save my status setting as DND everytime I log in? This is really the only solution to avoiding idiots that run around sending insulting whispers.

I will however hit /report on any such offenses since people kept on reporting my funny names and getting me banned. Now here is another point - if you are not allowed to use, or were to get banned for using a certain word in your character name, then why is that word allowed to be used towards others?

It doesnt even have to be said to other people, imagine if I made a name called 'Faggot Am I' or Faggot Was Bhavv', I would still without a doubt be banned for using that word for making fun of myself, yet it is allowed to be used against other people without any problems.

pumpkin pie · Jun 28, 2009, 04:48 AM // 04:48

What has filter got to do with all this?

Why that ^^ question.

Arena Net support team says, use the filter so you don't see the filtered words, lets says Upier have had their filter ON, you think Upier won't know that he was getting insulted/abuse/harass (don't know which category it should be in since i am not there).

You ------- --- idiot moron, go die.

---- you, DIE! you ------ ------. uninstall noob ---.

^^ that could be as offensive as if you had seen the words itself.

They did. even with filter, you know you are being insulted/abuse/harass when you are being insulted/abuse/harass. even if its a one time thing, and Arena Net support is saying that its okay to insulted/abuse/harass another player if its only a one time thing?

It does not make a different whether Upier has their filter on or off.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jun 28, 2009, 06:02 AM // 06:02

1. Inclusion of a chat filter is not permission to use profanity or offensive language. In the game, if you use either, you run the chance of being reported and banned. Don't "Q.Q" when you get banned for being an idiot.

2. Reporting someone for a valid reason doesn't ruin anything. Jerks who like to be jerks say it ruins the game because they can't get online and throw fits. They have serious anger issues and need professional help before those anger issues spill out into real life and they get hurt.

3. Carebear means fag? I did not know that.

4. Reporting someone for being offensive doesn't mean the person can't handle insults. It just means that the person want to play the game and relax without having to deal with other peoples BS.

5. If its fun to be a foul mouthed jerk, then its equally fun to report. Don't "Q.Q" about not liking how other people enjoy the game when you yourself don't care how your actions make them feel. Hypocrites.

6. Handling something online is very different that real life. Online I have very few options. I can place someone on the ignore list until it is full. Then I either have to remove a name from the list (which I do not do) or I can report the person. In real life, I have a few more options. None of which the offender would enjoy.

7. The ignore list is too small and can't handle the massive amount of names needed. The friends list and ignore list need to be increased and seperated into two different lists.

8. For every person saying "don't be so sensitive" I say "don't act like an emotionally unstable child"

I see most of the people posting in this thread have a developmental disorder. In other words, you lack the maturity you should already have. Either that or you lack self control. I think its both.

Yet more examples of unsupervised children and disfunctional adults. The OP wasn't crying about anything. He was trying to discuss where the line between a singular annoyance ends and ToS breaking offensiveness begins.

PS: I hope my reply added to the conversation.

refer · Jun 28, 2009, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

What has filter got to do with all this?

Why that ^^ question.

Arena Net support team says, use the filter so you don't see the filtered words, lets says Upier have had their filter ON, you think Upier won't know that he was getting insulted/abuse/harass (don't know which category it should be in since i am not there).

You ------- --- idiot moron, go die.

---- you, DIE! you ------ ------. uninstall noob ---.

^^ that could be as offensive as if you had seen the words itself.

They did. even with filter, you know you are being insulted/abuse/harass when you are being insulted/abuse/harass. even if its a one time thing, and Arena Net support is saying that its okay to insulted/abuse/harass another player if its only a one time thing?

It does not make a different whether Upier has their filter on or off.

Anet thinks that swears are inherently insulting (even though the f word can mean sex, s for feces, and you could even talk about the n-word from a historical context on how it got it's reputation) or that if there is no swearing, it isn't insulting or capable of hurt. Or they think that the people report because they just don't want to see bad language and don't realize there is a filter. Or that we cannot comprehend censored sentences, so we won't get offended.

What COULD those 3 ---'s mean!? *ponders*

upier · Jun 28, 2009, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Gee, I wonder why....

I think a number of people have also expressed a wish for a more detailed version of the incident.
It involved, what I consider a sub-par split, to which I asked "4-4 would be nice", to which the guy replied with "QQ more" "QQ more", following with my explanation that "since we need to break down all gates not going 4-4 is a bit counterproductive" and the guy replied with "learn to play and shutup carebearfag" and "kthnx".

Still, even if I had done something that would be related to homosexuality AND be potentially against the rules (which is the ONLY reason why people have the RIGHT to be against it (but by "it" I do not mean homosexuality itself!)), others users have the right to report me for it - but under no circumstances does that give them the right to resort to abusive behaviour themselves.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jun 28, 2009, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I too believed that calling someone a fag(/RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO/homo/ass-pirate/cocksucker/jew/douchebag/goatRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOer/whatever) was surely a one-way ticket to banville. Apparently it's not.

except he didn't get called a fag. he got called a carebearfag. fag is short for faggot, an anti-gay slur. carebearfag is a variation of the *something*fag meme, a hip new way of calling someone a *something* while indicating that the name-caller is a newfag, all with the use of only one word. so in effect, upier got called a carebear by a newfag. not quite as offensive as cocksucker is it?

refer · Jun 28, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I think a number of people have also expressed a wish for a more detailed version of the incident.
It involved, what I consider a sub-par split, to which I asked "4-4 would be nice", to which the guy replied with "QQ more" "QQ more", following with my explanation that "since we need to break down all gates not going 4-4 is a bit counterproductive" and the guy replied with "learn to play and shutup carebearfag" and "kthnx".

Still, even if I had done something that would be related to homosexuality AND be potentially against the rules (which is the ONLY reason why people have the RIGHT to be against it (but by "it" I do not mean homosexuality itself!)), others users have the right to report me for it - but under no circumstances does that give them the right to resort to abusive behaviour themselves.

Wow that sucks. I get the opposite - teams that split but can't break through due to not enough offense/too much defense. Suggest to rush? Yes you have to do it sometimes but they never want to or do it at the last moment. I would have either secret/casual leeched or not healed him lol.

And BTW, post this on the first post. Also would be good to know if you won or lost that game.

refer · Jun 28, 2009, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

except he didn't get called a fag. he got called a carebearfag. fag is short for faggot, an anti-gay slur. carebearfag is a variation of the *something*fag meme, a hip new way of calling someone a *something* while indicating that the name-caller is a newfag, all with the use of only one word. so in effect, upier got called a carebear by a newfag. not quite as offensive as cocksucker is it?

wow, way to overanalyze. maybe he forgot to add a space.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jun 28, 2009, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by refer

wow, way to overanalyze. maybe he forgot to add a space.

lol yeah *wink wink*. i've never heard of 4chan either

edit: oh shi-

Quote:

Originally Posted by refer

Location: US

if you're in the bible belt i'm sorry, i didn't know you were serious. if that's the case i'd like to respectfully deignorantize you by giving you this link to 4chan go to the random board and introduce yourself as a devout protestant where you will get called both a newfag by the people who think you're a bad troll and a religiousfag by the people who know you're a bad troll and are trying to troll you and everyone else by arguing with the vast majority of devout protestants who frequent 4chan. then you'll know how silly your typo theory sounds.

upier · Jun 28, 2009, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

except he didn't get called a fag. he got called a carebearfag. fag is short for faggot, an anti-gay slur. carebearfag is a variation of the *something*fag meme, a hip new way of calling someone a *something* while indicating that the name-caller is a newfag, all with the use of only one word. so in effect, upier got called a carebear by a newfag. not quite as offensive as cocksucker is it?

The difference is that we are dealing with two environments and two different sets of rules. It's the same reason why comparing incidents that happen while playing GW and those that happen in real life is a bit off.
Surely when you visit 4chan you do not need to agree to abide by the rules that are set for GW?

Enon · Jun 28, 2009, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guldur

The other is playing pvp, a competitive place where your screw up might result in a team loss. Expect people to be angry. Expect adrenaline to be high. Anet cant ban every person who says a single curse in pvp, this game would be empty.

Conclusion: Everything is allowed in the heat of the moment.

What the hell happened to common courtesy?

By the way - the game wouldn't be empty. There are enough people that have the decency to behave when playing Guild Wars. Be it PvP or PvE.

Longasc · Jun 28, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Support is right, you cannot ban people for every insult they say. The problem is that "some insults" have already become the norm for MMOs, which is sad. Trying to police heavily instanced games like GW is also problematic.

Arduin · Jun 28, 2009, 10:56 AM // 10:56

It is Anet Support or NCSoft Support who is handing out the bans?

(sorry for going OT, please carry on with your discussion, interesting read)

Kooloo-Limpah!

LicensedLuny · Jun 28, 2009, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Thanks to upier for posting this. While the ensuing shitstorm of posts in response was dizzying but not surprising, your story does raise interesting questions about NCSoft's inconsistencies on enforcing the EULA. While I doubt I would've reported the guy, I was surprised at the response you got from Support, too.

And another vote for the "QQ less" people having misread this. I've read the thread, and nothing about upier's posts strikes me as whiney at all. He found something surprising, and he put it here to let the community know about it. He's not asking us to avenge him or mend an emotional wound.

While it's not what I'd have expected, I don't mind that this incident didn't result in a ban. I am worried about this new trend of GM's replying to the reporter with information about what happened to the reportee. I liked it much better when all you ever got was the canned, "Thanks for letting us know. We'll check it out. For privacy concerns, we can't tell you anything more," response. I don't like the idea that someone can report you for something, and a GM will tell them what, if anything, they did to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

... And it wasn't a good day to call me a fag. ...

TY! That line cracked me up! How would Wednesday be?

Jeydra · Jun 28, 2009, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Lol almost the exact same thing happened to me once. Long, long ago one I played a team of 4 syncers with perfect TA bars in RA, and beat them. I told them in AllChat, "gg fags", and got banned for it (actually got banned twice too for the same offense, overturned the second one on appeal). OK, lesson learned, don't use the word "fag". Then not so long later one of my teammates called another one of my teammates "fag" in teamchat. I reported him, and he was banned. OK. Looks like I got the interpretation right. Recently someone else said "fag" in teamchat, and again I reported him. This time he didn't get banned. What the heck? I linked the GM the previous ticket which did result in a ban, and then surprisingly enough the GM tells me that the previous ticket was handled inappropriately. Looks like somewhere along the line what constitutes an insult and what doesn't has changed.

I think what ANet needs is a set of clear rules. For example: it is not bannable to say "fag" in teamchat or private whisper, but it is in AllChat. Great. This sets down limits with no grey area. Without it, ambiguities will simply keep happening.

PS: I think said person should be banned. After all, other people have been banned for things less major, so why shouldn't this guy be?

Guldur · Jun 28, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enon

Conclusion: Everything is allowed in the heat of the moment.

What the hell happened to common courtesy?

By the way - the game wouldn't be empty. There are enough people that have the decency to behave when playing Guild Wars. Be it PvP or PvE.

I never said anything is allowed. I said you can expect a curse or another.

Anet cant go around banning every single person that swears a single time. This only pisses off players and make them stop playing, and thats something we dont need right now, specially because of carebears who shouldnt be in PvP.

Most of the times the one reporting isnt offended at all, he just wants his little revenge and try to get the other banned. Fortunately Anet isnt falling for it anymore.